Raising Steam *Warning Spoilers*

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Re: Raising Steam *Warning Spoilers*

Postby RolandItwasntmyfault » Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:39 pm

feanor wrote:
raisindot wrote:Hey Feanor, agree with your views but you probably shouldn't put my words in Roland's "mouth'; you don't want to saddle him with my well-established reputation as an ornery, misanthropic critic of Pterry's latest works... :lol:



Sorry dot. I'm crap with the whole Quote thing. sorry for any mis-attribution.




Ah, I don't mind. :D

And yes, dot, I got familiar to your reputation already while I was first reading the threads in this forum before I even registered to the forum. :lol: ;)
(And at instant I felt homely with the forum and all you controversial discussing lot. 8-) )

@ feanor: Nicely put, I think I also would be buggered.*



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Re: Raising Steam *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:34 pm

RolandItwasntmyfault wrote:
feanor wrote:
raisindot wrote:Hey Feanor, agree with your views but you probably shouldn't put my words in Roland's "mouth'; you don't want to saddle him with my well-established reputation as an ornery, misanthropic critic of Pterry's latest works... :lol:



Sorry dot. I'm crap with the whole Quote thing. sorry for any mis-attribution.




Ah, I don't mind. :D

And yes, dot, I got familiar to your reputation already while I was first reading the threads in this forum before I even registered to the forum. :lol: ;)
(And at instant I felt homely with the forum and all you controversial discussing lot. 8-) )


Well, in my defense, I'm only at most vitriolic when it comes to his most recent books (UA, Snuff, Raising Steam, The Long W books). Most of this other books (save for the Rincewinds) I love.
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Re: Raising Steam *Warning Spoilers*

Postby mt1955 » Fri May 02, 2014 11:54 am

I was reading Reaper Man again and was stunned and delighted to discover it mentions Ned Simnel, a blacksmith working on a new-fangled reaping machine. As he is trying to imagine a better method to power his new machine than horses or clockwork, the kettle boils over and puts the fire out.

"Simnel fought his way through the steam. That was the bloody trouble, every time. Whenever someone was trying to do a bit of sensible thinking, there's always some pointless distraction."


I never noticed the tie-in until today, though probably everyone else has already. Even so, I had to post about it because it is just so incredibly masterful of Sir Terry to have connected the stories this way.

Cheers
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Re: Raising Steam *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Tue May 06, 2014 3:24 pm

mt1955 wrote:I was reading Reaper Man again and was stunned and delighted to discover it mentions Ned Simnel, a blacksmith working on a new-fangled reaping machine. As he is trying to imagine a better method to power his new machine than horses or clockwork, the kettle boils over and puts the fire out.

"Simnel fought his way through the steam. That was the bloody trouble, every time. Whenever someone was trying to do a bit of sensible thinking, there's always some pointless distraction."


I never noticed the tie-in until today, though probably everyone else has already. Even so, I had to post about it because it is just so incredibly masterful of Sir Terry to have connected the stories this way.

Cheers



I absolutely totally did not catch that connection...maybe because it's been so long since I read RM. Since Ned was kind of a figure of lampoonery in RM, it's nice to see that he got his full due in RS. As the Igors say, "What goes around comes around."
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Re: Raising Steam *Warning Spoilers*

Postby Quatermass » Thu May 08, 2014 9:16 am

I've just seen the new paperback cover for Raising Steam, and I actually love it better than the hardback version.
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Re: Raising Steam *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Thu May 08, 2014 4:19 pm

Quatermass wrote:I've just seen the new paperback cover for Raising Steam, and I actually love it better than the hardback version.


It wouldn't take much to better it, given that the hardcover is essentially a retread of the HC cover of Snuff, with Moist the train driver instead of Vimes the boat captain.
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Re: Raising Steam *Warning Spoilers*

Postby Quatermass » Fri May 09, 2014 6:07 am

raisindot wrote:
Quatermass wrote:I've just seen the new paperback cover for Raising Steam, and I actually love it better than the hardback version.


It wouldn't take much to better it, given that the hardcover is essentially a retread of the HC cover of Snuff, with Moist the train driver instead of Vimes the boat captain.


Technically, this one is a retread of Going Postal. Moist is in the same pose, after all. But it works better than the hardcover version of Raising Steam.
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Re: Raising Steam *Warning Spoilers*

Postby cabbagehead » Sat May 17, 2014 5:56 pm

Raising Steam was mostly OK. The plot became too predictable and formulaic mid-book. But there was one bit that made my day, and that was Albrecht Albrechtson's speech to Ardent. The way Pratchett depicted a conservative politician that was actually someone I could respect and even admire - which rarely if ever happens in real life. One who had good reasons to stick with the Old Ways, and who came to realize those reasons no longer applied (or at least not as strongly as before) and was open to change, as long as change was supported by reasonable justification.

One of the weakest points: With its history in many past books, when so many Watchpersons are present, it is hard to find any crime much of a challenge. Which makes it almost impossible to write any kind of books featuring Vimes or the Watch heavily believably suspenseful. Vimes has become another Vetinari - can add flavor if used sparingly, anything beyond that is overdone.

Re: Vetinari's characterization: To people who complained earlier in this thread: This is not the first time Vetinari openly mentions being a tyrant. He did it in Making Money too. I don't think he is ever subtle with Moist, come to think of it. The chatty Vetinari has been around since at least Unseen Academicals.

As for at which point Charlie became involved - somewhere around page 200, after Moist leaves the Oblong Office, Vetinari asks Drumknott how Charlie's clowning business was doing. I think that was when Vetinari first raised the possibility of employing Charlie as his 'replacement'. Between that moment and the beginning of the train ride, there are three scenes in which Vetinari appears, and in at least one of them Drumknott isn't present, so that limits the possibilities for scenes where we haven't seen the real Vetinari. I do think Vetinari must have taken a few forays as Stoker Blake before the big train ride to Uberwald because he already had the reputation, so Charlie may have had a few visits to the Oblong Office during the weeks leading to the train ride, though I doubt we saw more than one of them.
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Re: Raising Steam *Warning Spoilers*

Postby =Tamar » Sat May 17, 2014 9:15 pm

cabbagehead wrote: This is not the first time Vetinari openly mentions being a tyrant. He did it in Making Money too. I don't think he is ever subtle with Moist, come to think of it. The chatty Vetinari has been around since at least Unseen Academicals.


Years ago, fans were complaining that Vetinari never showed himself actually being a tyrant and they doubted his reputation. Possibly that had something to do with his being more open about it.

During the tour for Unseen Academicals, I had a chance to ask Sir Terry a question and I asked about what I perceived as a change in Vetinari in Making Money, and he said that Vetinari has to be very harsh with Moist in order to make him change. Subtlety wouldn't work.

cabbagehead wrote:As for at which point Charlie became involved - somewhere around page 200, after Moist leaves the Oblong Office, Vetinari asks Drumknott how Charlie's clowning business was doing. I think that was when Vetinari first raised the possibility of employing Charlie as his 'replacement'.


I was under the impression that the idea was mentioned at the end of The Truth. Maybe that particular scene is when Charlie is brought into action in this book.

cabbagehead wrote: Between that moment and the beginning of the train ride, there are three scenes in which Vetinari appears, and in at least one of them Drumknott isn't present, so that limits the possibilities for scenes where we haven't seen the real Vetinari. I do think Vetinari must have taken a few forays as Stoker Blake before the big train ride to Uberwald because he already had the reputation, so Charlie may have had a few visits to the Oblong Office during the weeks leading to the train ride, though I doubt we saw more than one of them.


I can't see Charlie being sufficiently competent to get Stoker Blake's reputation, so despite how fast a learner Vetinari is, I think he must have been there most of the time. That could explain rather a lot of Vetinari's unusual behavior in the office as Charlie's overacting.
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Re: Raising Steam *Warning Spoilers*

Postby Tonyblack » Sat May 17, 2014 10:06 pm

If anyone has any doubt about Vetinari - the comments he makes to Drumnott regarding Charlie's wife and children should make them realise that he hasn't gone soft.
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Re: Raising Steam *Warning Spoilers*

Postby cabbagehead » Sat May 17, 2014 10:56 pm

To Tamar:

I can't see Charlie being sufficiently competent to get Stoker Blake's reputation, so despite how fast a learner Vetinari is, I think he must have been there most of the time.


I think you misunderstood me. What I meant was that there must have been earlier instances, sometime between the time Vetinari asked Drumknott about Charlie and the train trip that we see, when Vetinari rode the trains as a stoker, while Charlie acted in his place at the Palace. At the end of the book Drumknott thanks Charlie for 2 weeks of service. I think those 2 weeks cover the 4 days or so of travel to Uberwald, the days spent in Uberwald and the time it took Vetinari to return, presumably by coach. But in order for people to already know of Stoker Blake, he must have traveled a bit before. So Charlie must have been at the Palace several times rather than one long stint.
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Re: Raising Steam *Warning Spoilers*

Postby =Tamar » Sun May 18, 2014 10:44 pm

cabbagehead wrote:To Tamar:

I can't see Charlie being sufficiently competent to get Stoker Blake's reputation, so despite how fast a learner Vetinari is, I think he must have been there most of the time.


I think you misunderstood me. What I meant was that there must have been earlier instances, sometime between the time Vetinari asked Drumknott about Charlie and the train trip that we see, when Vetinari rode the trains as a stoker, while Charlie acted in his place at the Palace.


I think we're agreeing. I agree, I also think that Vetinari had to have spent rather a lot of time being Stoker Blake.

cabbagehead wrote:At the end of the book Drumknott thanks Charlie for 2 weeks of service. I think those 2 weeks cover the 4 days or so of travel to Uberwald, the days spent in Uberwald and the time it took Vetinari to return, presumably by coach. But in order for people to already know of Stoker Blake, he must have traveled a bit before. So Charlie must have been at the Palace several times rather than one long stint.


I feel that Charlie had to have been place-filling at the palace for a lot more time than we see on the page, though I haven't worked out the exact time sequence. The two weeks could just have been the most recent session, as Charlie has the gig on standby. I think Charlie may have had to start the stoker job and be the ignorant one at first, with Drumknott being there being "enthusiastic" and reporting in detail to Vetinari, so that Vetinari could take the position later about the time that "Blake" is supposed to become competent, without making any mistakes about what Charlie may have said and done. (Note, I also think Drumknott may be genuinely enthusiastic, but part of it is his cover for observing. He has to be there _and_ carry messages back and forth so he can advise Charlie of what Vetinari wants him to do.)

The return trip from Uberwald could have been by several possible magical methods; are we told exactly how it's done?
I don't remember.
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Re: Raising Steam *Warning Spoilers*

Postby Jammie02 » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:39 am

thanks for post.
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Re: Raising Steam *Warning Spoilers*

Postby 2centsnonthewiser » Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:27 pm

Will be back to read all when I've finished reading the book. Just need to finish another one and then Raising Steam is next up! :D
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Re: Raising Steam *Warning Spoilers*

Postby hnorwood » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:25 pm

I didn't think that Vetinari would have been fit enough to take on being a stoker - he walks with a stick. He got wounded in MAA, after all.
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